What I learned the second time I read "JIM AND CASPER GO TO CHURCH" by Jim Henderson and Matt Casper

"I still think every pastor should send people out from his or her own church to anonymously visit other churches. The pastors—and the visitors—would certainly learn a lot, both about what works and about what doesn’t work.

I also think that every Christian should be required to bring one cynic/atheist/unbeliever to church at least once a year (even if it means spending twenty-five dollars once in a while like I did). Doing so would allow Christians to see their churches through the eyes of outsiders.

Each church could keep a journal of these visits and post them for all to see on a public blog. In a church of seventy-five members, that would mean seventy-five cynics would be exposed to that church’s culture every year and share their thoughts. This could lead to some significant improvements in how that congregation does church. I can’t think of one reason not to do that—can you?" JH

As much as I enjoyed the book and the adventure these two went on... my answer to Jim's question is a resounding "YES".  I can think of a few reasons why what they did isn't advised for every church congregation, and definitely not necessary, but the big reason I have is this. 

I DON'T BELIEVE CHURCH IS FOR THE OUTSIDER.  

There... I said it.  And it is a big stereotype, but I will explain myself.  All I really have to go on is my own personal experience with multiple church cultures, church programs, church denominations and church attendees.  Churches are clubs... gathering places for people who want to believe alike, practice the same rituals, preach the same message, support the same doctrines and encourage their families to do and believe the same.  And let me emphasize that my experience, although somewhat extensive and yet still limited in the grand scheme of things,  is inspiring this post.  Churches are not designed to be diverse.  Churches are designed at their core to be exclusive and focused.  That is why there are so many of them and so many different kinds.  

I was introduced to church differences early in my childhood, but I was also introduced to the club mentality and survival mechanisms within that culture.  To this day, I still don't understand "church" as a place where differences can be celebrated, when for most of my experience within the walls, differences were shunned and shamed.  The only place I found myself free to celebrate differences was as an "outsider".  

I still enjoyed Jim and Casper's adventures and this time when I read the book, I jumped around in the chapters and some chapters I read twice.  Grant it, most of the places that Jim and Casper went to were the big famous megachurches... Lakewood, Saddleback, Willow Creek, Mars Hill... so for me it was an unbiased view into those organizations.  Matt Casper didn't hold any punches or observations back and that was refreshing.  He also was honest when he found something that impressed him.  That too was refreshing.  

I spent twenty-five years as a pastor feeling like a failure. JH

I understand Jim's mindset... at least the one portrayed in the book.  This book was published in 2007 and maybe by now, Jim's perspective has evolved a little more... and much due to his friendship with Matt Casper.  But going on his thoughts in this book, I can still understand his frustration.  Christianity's identity is wrapped up in the need to convert the world.  I don't know any other religion so passionate or focused on changing people's minds and beliefs.  It's ironic... I never got that vibe from Jesus and the stories I read about him.  But maybe that is just my interpretation.  

It seems that Jim's purpose in having Matt go along with him, is to open up the eyes of the churches as to the things they could do better to attract "outsiders" into their midst, like that is the main reason they exist.  But did it really make an impression in places like Lakewood and Saddleback?  I doubt it.  

In my mind, humanity is divided into two groups: (1) people who follow Jesus, and (2) everybody else. It doesn’t matter to me whether you call yourself a Christian, a Buddhist, a humanist, an agnostic, or an atheist. If you aren’t following Jesus, you’re in group two. JH

So what is group one and what is group two and what does it have to do with fixing the churches?  Was that the purpose of the whole venture... to point out the flaws and hope that "outsiders" will want to go to church, if it isn't even on their radar? 

This book was entertaining for me... both times.  But my mindset has had a massive shift since 2007.  I would like to imagine that there are not two groups... but one big group... called Humanity.  That would be my hope that one day, we don't have to divide humanity into any groups and we don't have to figure out how to fix our clubs to welcome in people who don't "play our game". 

There are clubs in pretty much every avenue of life... sports, entertainment, social, academic... the list goes on.  I can't see too many chess club members out trying to get converts from the sewing clubs or hockey teams drafting members from baseball teams.  This world has clubs and teams centred around a common interest.  That is how we have been functioning as a race of people for as long as we have existed.  That is how we do things.  The hockey players don't have to look down at the baseball players, just because they pay a different sport, they can appreciate the diversity and variety having more than one game or team is.   So why not let church function the same way?  

 I think what I have appreciated about the story of Jim and Casper... from both books is the openness they both had to learn from each other.  They were honest about their journeys and that is probably why they stayed friends.  I think now it would get old real quick if the only foundation to a relationship was that I would conform to the person who I was having a relationship with.  I know that person... it is me.  I am good at conforming to have relationship.  But now... it is not as inviting for me. I may still do it to a degree, but when I do, I don't like myself.  Is that the life people want for me... to turn myself  into them and not like myself.  Sounds very cruel. 

I also understand not wanting to be a mark for someone's evangelical agenda.  That would get old real quick too.  I hope I and others matter more and have more value than just being a convert target because someone is worried about my eternal destination.  

"Certainty is boring. Certainty is closed off. Certainty is against new information. Certainty is a kind of orthodoxy, really, and it was those kinds of “certainty” moments—when I would hear a pastor or others in a church declare themselves absolutely certain of heaven, God’s existence, truth—that I would get a little riled. Because being absolutely certain about something you cannot prove is simply dogma, and dogmatism is the death of ideas. And I like ideas."  MC

I am still a work in progress.  I am still fighting feelings of inadequacy.  I feel like I will never fit in like I thought I once did.  Sometimes I am scared of losing everyone in my life.  That's right.  Sometimes my confidence is at an all time zero.  I wish I could fix that... like I said... a work in progress.  Is it up to me to believe I'm okay and that will be enough.  Can I let go of the expectations of others and more importantly, my perceptions of others.  I'm not exposed to the people Matt Casper was during his church tours.  No one in a long time has told me I'm going to hell.  Maybe my people don't care.  Maybe who I am is enough for them.  

When I first told Casper about the book, he was immediately onboard but with one condition: “I can do this, but I need you to be as open-minded with me as you need me to be with you, Jim.”

“What do you mean?” I asked Casper.

“I’m currently an atheist, Jim. I say currently because I am open to the possibility that I may learn something that will change my point of view. Jim, can you say ‘I am currently a Christian’ and be as open-minded as me?”

I nodded. Yes. Let’s write a book. JH

I have a dream... I wish I could write a book with someone.  I wish I could  have a conversation with someone...  like Jim and Casper... or the Campolos or the Raybons.  It's a dream.  Maybe a far-off dream... but a dream none the less.  

I will say thank you to Jim Henderson and Matt Casper...even though I don't know how to contact them to send them this post.  Your journey of relationship amazes me much more than your church adventures do.  The adventures were interesting, but I am amazed and inspired by your friendship.  

People need to hear the stories of everyday Christians helping others.

People need to see us put into action what we say we believe.

People need to be able to tell us what they really think of us and not worry about a fire-and-brimstone retort.

If we do such things, maybe we’d start to see a church more like the one Jesus told us about, a church that even an atheist might be tempted to be a part of. JH

... the moment you think you have all the answers, well, you might as well lock yourself in a cave, because no one you meet will ever have anything interesting to say to you again. MC

Posted by Ruby Neumann... currently an agnostic

It's not just about "SAVING CASPER" with Jim Henderson and Matt Casper

Wow… this is the best book in the trifecta of reads that have invited me into a diverse conversation.  I've read Bart and Tony Campolo's book "Why I Left, Why I Stayed" and Patricia and Alana Raybon's book "Undivided"  and while both were amazing and inviting reads, this book is the most inviting.  There seemed less emphasis on the desire of the "Christian" to change the "Non-Christian".  The emphasis seemed to be more on understanding Matt Casper's story.  I think I really resonated with that.  I am on "the other side" now and maybe that is what makes this such a compelling read.  The other two books were read when there was still some residual "Christianity" left in me.  This time through, I was hoping to find a place where I could come to peace with my life, so I was looking for how Matt was at peace with who he is.  

This is a follow up book to another read, that Jim Henderson and Matt Casper wrote and I read over a decade ago… "Jim and Casper go to Church".  Jim Henderson, a Christian, invited Matt Casper, an atheist, to attend churches across America.  Matt gave his honest opinion about what he as "an outsider" saw in their churches that maybe most of the people that attended took for-granted or simply missed.  Maybe it is time to reread that one and get a fresh look at the journey again.  

I admire his respect and willingness to venture into all those churches  From what I read, Matt really wants to help people understand him more and focus less on the differences and more on the commonality of their humanity.  

I don't know how to begin to share quotes to invite people into this story.  There were so many.  To pick and choose my favourite was not easy, but I found some that really encouraged me…  most of them are from Matt but I found a couple from Jim that were also encouraging.  I will share those and then summarize what I hope is the outcome for me for reading it.  

Matt Casper:

"For me, it’s not the start of anything. I see it more as the completion of a transaction begun when we were born. Death is the price we pay for living. A fact, plain and simple. That’s how I see it. And it’s not just our own deaths—it’s any death. Being in denial of death or living in fear of death is like going swimming and refusing to think you’ll get wet or being afraid of getting wet. Getting wet is part of going swimming. It’s unavoidable and intrinsic." 

"You know, people who are trying to save others by using the promise of heaven or the threat of hell might want to keep in mind that promises and threats only work if both parties agree on the legitimacy or value of the threats or promises...

The threat of hell hanging over the head of a person who doesn’t believe in it doesn’t really accomplish anything at all . . . other than maybe pushing that person away."

"So this “end of experience” is really only the end of our personal experience. Once we’ve lived, we’re always alive. We leave our mark—the things we did, the words we said, the impressions we made all have a ripple effect while we’re alive that continues after we’re gone. We live on in how what we said and did affected others."

"By that token, it’s easy for me to say that Jesus is very much alive today, as His words and deeds continue to impact others in tremendous ways. It’s easy for me to say that John Lennon is alive too. As is the father whose children live their lives according to how he raised them. As is my mom."

"The problem I have with some atheists is the same problem I have with some Christians: certainty. You can’t unequivocally prove your beliefs, so c’mon, take it easy.”

“But another part of me thinks that being on the attack is a pretty reasonable response when you consider that I’m being damned or dismissed by someone I don’t even know and who has never bothered to get to know me either.”

The thing is, the only reason they think I’m going to burn in hell or that I’m ignorant is because I don’t agree with them. They invalidate my opinion—my very life!—because I don’t share their exact beliefs. It’s like, no matter how I may live my life, no matter how kind or caring I may be, no matter how well I may serve others, because of that one difference, the judgment has been made, the die has been cast, and the fires are waiting for me. I’m sorry, but I just don’t think there’s anything remotely Christian about that—at least based on what I’ve read about how Jesus treated people."

They seem to know that, while the Bible may be two thousand years old and some of its language and cultural references may be a bit outdated, there is a core principle voiced clearly and repeatedly by the founder of their belief system: love others, be charitable, don’t be a hypocrite. No matter what circumstances we may find ourselves in today, that’s a timeless message.

Speaking for my own atheism, it’s not something I celebrate, really. Nor is it something I mourn. It’s just something that is, for me"

Jim Henderson:

"I’ve been astounded to discover how people generally lack curiosity about other people, other beliefs, other perceptions, and other ways of making sense of reality. Christians claim to be following the one true God, who has transformed us and given us an eternal and abundant life. We, of all people, should be the most curious, the least threatened by differences, and the kindest people on the face of this earth."

"My Jesus did not come to earth to prove He was right. He came to prove He was love. He didn’t come just to save the world; He came to serve the world. Saving us was “baked in” to serving us, so of course He did that as well. My Jesus was not afraid of engaging anyone, be they lepers, prostitutes, tax collectors, or Pharisees. My Jesus managed to connect with an incredibly diverse group of humans without losing His own humanity."

Ruby's Reflections:

I am compelled to this kind of story and this kind of journey.  I long to feel like there will be someone who would invite me into a their world just to be a friend without the agenda of conversion.  I get it… I have not only seen the arrogance of Christianity… I lived it.  I used to believe that it was the agenda to change and convert everyone on the planet to "our way".  Maybe if the focus had been on sharing some of that "timeless message" of Jesus, maybe I wouldn't have lost my interest.  Maybe if I was allowed my uncertainty and still allowed my community, then maybe I would still be in a community.  But I am like those lepers in Jesus day that were forced to live outside the city walls, because they were told that what they had was contagious and damaging to those living inside the walls of the city.  

I am pretty open on my blog about my journey, but not as open in my conversations with my friends and family.  Either they don't read my blog and aren't aware of my current journey, or they have read it and for the most part… don't bring it up.  I don't know.  I don't have too many people telling me "I am going to hell."  So for that, Matt Casper has my compassion.  But maybe it is easier to tell a stranger online these things, than it is a friend or family member.  

I do have friends and family members that are constantly "encouraging" me with kind notes and letters… hoping I find my way "back to Jesus" one day.  It seems more subtle for me.  I still don't know if I like it or don't like it.  It is a part of them, so I let it be.  I am like Matt, in that I understand my journey is subject to change on an ongoing basis.  So all I have to testify to is where I am right now.   

I am all about Love, Kindness, Compassion, Hope, Authenticity, Gratitude, Wisdom and Growth as a Human being.  I want to be a better human.  I can't force my brain to conform to what others would like it to conform to.  That ship has sailed.  I read too many books, followed too many journeys, listened to too many stories… I left my bubble to find out what the rest of the world was talking about, and then I found it was impossible to go back.  

I've made mistakes in the last years in my communications with my Christian friends and family.  I need to love them more by respecting their beliefs.  Even though I don't embrace a lot of it anymore, I can still value what it has brought to my life.  I am who I am because of how my parents raised me and the places and people who have made a difference in my life.  I just want to be the best "me" I can be.  

Thank you "Jim and Casper"  for your amazing reads.  Thank you Matt Casper for your authenticity and endurance.  You didn't deserve the mudslinging that you got.  It is embarrassing and downright appalling how people treat other people when all we really need to do is be human.  

I think Jesus had a good handle on humanity.  I still like the stories, they are encouraging and helpful for the journey to becoming a better human.  Whether history or stories, they show us a better way of doing life.  

"I’m probably closer to knowing God than I’ve ever been before. And that’s because people who are close to God have also chosen to be close to me."  Matt Casper